INTRO
LATHAM
Welcome to Artful Conversations, a podcast about arts and cultural management. I’m Annetta Latham.
INGRAM
And I'm Katrina Ingram. We interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture, sharing their stories, insights, and observations.
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LATHAM
Welcome to Artful Conversations, I’m your host Annetta Latham. Today, I'm joined by Miranda Jimmy, Edmontonian and member of Thunderchild First Nation. Miranda is currently with the Alberta Foundation for the Arts where she serves as an Indigenous arts development consultant. She's also a co-founder of eyes which stands for Reconciliation in Solidarity Edmonton. She was one of Avenue’s 2016 top 40 under 40. She has worked both in not-for-profit and the public sector, and is known for her contributions to building and creating community and advocating for the Indigenous voice. She's taking courses in the Grant MacEwan Arts and Cultural Management program. Welcome Miranda.
Miranda, can you tell us more about your personal journey, and how you've come to what you're doing now?
JIMMY
I've always been involved in the community in a variety of ways. Growing up, I volunteered and was involved with Girl Guides and community connections and activism. So that's always been a part of who I am. When I moved to Edmonton to come to school, I didn't know anybody. The way I got to know people was getting involved in the community, and volunteering, and it was actually through my volunteer work in the arts that led me to the Arts and Cultural Management program.
I would say that one thing that I saw disconnected or misrepresented was Indigenous voices throughout that, and specifically this kind of siloing or separation of Indigenous culture and tradition and practice, separate from more “fine arts and cultural practices” that we seem to see as mainstream. So I thought that was interesting, that there was the separation and segregation, and I saw an opportunity to build those bridges. And this was 15 years ago.
LATHAM
What a wonderful journey. I think it's fantastic that you saw something and are responding to it. I think that's really exciting. You recently ran for the city council in the 2017 elections. Well done. That’s a very courageous thing to do, tell us about that experience.
JIMMY
Well again, through my community work I've always seen myself as political – probably small ‘p’ political – using my voice to advocate for and create the change that I see needed in my community. I just saw an opportunity with city council to take that position further, and really city council is the one place where we're supposed to be nonpartisan. It's about the community voice, and really the opportunity for individuals to create change long-term change through policy and planning in our city. I saw a need for more community voices around the table, specifically Indigenous voices and more women voices as well.
LATHAM
I think it's very courageous. I think you're a braver woman that I am. In relation to project management, which I'm sure you did a lot of project management in relation to running for the election, let's talk about a project that you did a few years ago and it was #ReconcilingYEG.
Can you give us a quick summary of what that project was, and how you built and established a plan for the project?
JIMMY
Well Reconciling Edmonton started as we approached the closing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The 94 Calls to Action had been released, and the final report was to come. Me and a few people in the community recognized that this was an opportunity to really challenge people to think about this idea of reconciliation, and not put the onus on the TRC. This idea of reconciliation started before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission existed, and needed to continue after, so that was kind of the root of the idea. The project was based in archival record. We wanted to go through the records, through the archives at the City Archives and the Provincial Archives, to find examples of reconciliation from the signing of treaty to present day and give the community an opportunity to think about and respond to that. So I was part of the team that led it. There were two Indigenous women and two settler women bringing together our different perspectives and unique skills to bring the project together. I think it was really from the core about how you represent the idea of reconciliation through the way that you work. From the very sense of the idea, how are we going to Indigenize processes, how are we going to include Indigenous voices at the same level as settler voices, or how are we going to make sure that there is space and resources dedicated to allowing all different perspectives on the topic to be included, and continue to evolve the conversation.
We didn't want it to be from the start to the end of the project. We didn't want the conversation to end. So those were all the premises that we started with. Thinking about the project management perspective, it was really about what is the end result we want to achieve, and how do we think about that from the very seed of the idea throughout the process, and make sure that it continues after the project is done.
LATHAM
Fantastic. How long did the project go for?
JIMMY
All in all, it was only about six months from the time that we got the original seed grant of $2,500 to the unveiling event that took place in November of 2015.
LATHAM
Fantastic. It was great to hear you talking about thinking about how you're going to evaluate things right at the beginning, because that's what I tell my students all the time. I say, “you begin at the end.” So what measurements did you use then to assess the project's impact?
JIMMY
Probably more qualitative than quantitative. This was one of the first projects that RISE was involved in after we founded. When I first initiated the conversation around RISE, a lot of Indigenous people said “no thanks, reconciliation is not my work to do. The settlers have the work to do, and once they've done a little bit more work then I'm ready to join the conversation.” That was something I heard overwhelmingly from many of my Indigenous friends and community members. That was in early 2015. So part of the challenge from the beginning with this particular project was, how do we get more Indigenous voices to the table? I think we needed to prove to people that there were settlers that were committed to the cause of reconciliation. People willing to do the hard work, and challenge their own biases, and and deepen their understanding. Once that took place, more Indigenous people would feel courageous enough to come back to the table.
One of the amazing things that took place is, like I said, in early 2015 we had very few Indigenous voices involved with RISE. But by the end of November, when we held the unveiling event for this at City Hall, visibly in the audience there was a 50/50 percentage. Thinking about it now, the images in my mind, that's what success look like to me.
LATHAM
Fantastic. So when you think about what success now looks like for you, I think it's a really good phrase when we do something. Because sometimes it changes as a project goes through its life. And what we want often can change, and grow, and evolve. So in relation to that, what did you learn from the project? What was your take-home?
JIMMY
I think really challenging myself and my colleagues to Indigenize process. And again remembering that end result. Yes, projects change and shift, and changes come to the table throughout it, and that's okay, that's part of the learning process. You learn to figure out where you want to bend and shift, and where you want to stay true to that original idea. For us, that checkpoint was always the end goal of “what do we want to accomplish, what do we want to say?”
Some of the challenges through that were, the project became bigger than we imagined, which is a good problem to have. So that changed the scale, that changed the budget, that changed the amount of partners, and outside involvement we needed. That created challenges within itself, of how are we going to keep a reign on the monster that was developing. All of those are good things, and actually added to the value of the end result, knowing that there was more support and more people behind us than we had originally planned for.
LATHAM
That's great. And when you created a project using collaborative artistic mediums, that had an exhibition recognition at the acknowledgement at the end, and really shared responses, that reconciliation and using arts as a part of the healing… Why do you think it's so important that arts and culture continues to play a role in presenting projects like this?
JIMMY
I think we always need to challenge our norms and understanding. What was taught a generation ago, or what was considered art a generation ago, is constantly shifting and changing. I think we need to adapt to that. Also, thinking about who had the right or place to create art has changed in a generation. We need to constantly be thinking about that. Whose voices and perspectives are included and represented in the art that we choose to involve ourselves with, that we choose to support, that we choose to generate? I think that is a constant push that we need to be involved in, and I think probably the arts out of all the sectors is more adaptive to that thought process. But there are also colonial structures that exist, specifically in the fine arts, that aren't so easy to change.
LATHAM
Yes, we were fortunate enough to interview Simon Brault from the Canada Council for the Arts, and he talked about the changes that they are hoping to put in place to support Indigenous status. I think it's really exciting, hearing what you were saying as well, because it reinforces that new direction, which I think is really exciting. So let's move on to talk about RISE, which I think is a really interesting thing. I've read a little bit about it. I think it is an absolutely amazing commemoration you've put together. You're the co-founder of RISE. Can you explain what this organization is, and what it does, and why you felt it was needed?
JIMMY
For me it's been a combination of my learning, and my journey as an adult. I would say for me personally, it starts in grade 11. In grade 11 social studies. My social studies teacher, who happened to be Japanese, talked about the Japanese internment camps and his his family's connection to that. And he made a statement saying, “this is the second worst thing the Canadian government ever did.” So someone asked, “well what was the first?” And he said, “well, residential schools.” That wasn't in the curriculum. It was never mentioned again, I didn't know what he was talking about. I also didn't know, for me personally, that I had already been suffering the intergenerational effects of residential schools. I grew up in poverty. My dad's first language was Cree, but he never spoke a word to us. We didn't have any connection to our community, or our culture, or even most of my extended family. I grew up in a house filled with violence, and addictions, and mental health issues, and all of those were a result of a system that I knew nothing about.
As an adult, I started on a journey of understanding this, and learning from myself. That's where, again, I saw that disconnect between Indigenous people and perspectives being segregated from others. I thought, “this isn't right. Systems were put in place to make sure that I didn't have access to that.” So what can I do to change that, or build the bridge? You start by learning, you start by asking questions, and you start by connecting with people who have knowledge. So for me, that started with connecting with elders, and with the Indigenous community, and hearing people's stories and experiences of residential schools. I was involved prior to the settlement agreement being signed in 2008, and have had an amazing opportunity over the last ten years to hear hundreds of firsthand stories and testimony from survivors.
In March of 2014, Edmonton hosted the seventh and final national event of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. This was the first time for me that I heard residential school talked about in mainstream media, where it was on the front page of the newspaper, it was the top story on the news, and a light bulb went off for me. There’s no more excuses saying, “I didn't know.” You have your head buried in the sand, and you don't listen to any mainstream media, then maybe you have that excuse. It was also the first time at that event that I gave my testimony as an intergenerational survivor and talked about my experience. I think it's important that we present a face to this story, and the impact that it's had. It also was a phase in my healing journey to say that my story has value, and that I have a voice that can actually create change for the community by using it. If I remain silent and only talk to Indigenous people, I'm not doing a favor to anyone else and no one has an opportunity to learn. I had that opportunity to learn, and I need to pass that on to others. So after the TRC was in town, over the year that followed, there were many conversations on social media. People asking questions, really from a place of wanting to learn. “I didn't know this, where can I learn more?” “I've always had a prejudice against Indigenous people that I see homeless on the streets. I feel guilty, I feel shame, what do I do with that?”
I don't know enough about my own family's history. All of these questions were popping up, and I thought people were really brave to ask the questions, and so they deserved a response. I started answering questions from complete strangers on social media. I started pointing people to resources. I started calling people on comments that were off-colour, or racist, or stereotypical, and saying “that's not right.” I felt like I was empowered to do that, where I didn't feel like I had that before.
As a year progressed after the TRC event here in Edmonton, the one-year anniversary was approaching, I was expecting… I had been involved in so many conversations over that year. Amazing conversations, and amazing learnings, and new friendships. I thought a year later, there's going to be something, there's going to be some big government announcement, there's going to be a monument, a new program, there's going to be something. A year of talking is enough. They waited, and they waited, and nothing was happening. Then a couple of weeks before the anniversary, I heard about a small gathering that was taking place in Churchill Square to honour the first anniversary of the first day of the TRC event here in Edmonton. I showed up, and there were about 100 people gathered in a circle. An elder sang a round dance song, we danced for about 15 minutes, and everyone laughed, and I thought, “this is it. This is what I waited a year for.” A year later, only 100 people in our city care enough to show up for 15 minutes. I actually got more and more angry. I went home that night going, “what is going on? I don't get it, why did seven thousand people give testimony if a year later it doesn't even matter?”
I went to bed really angry that night, and the next morning I got up, and my anger had subsided a little bit. I thought, “well, nothing is being done. I need to do something. This is not right.” I sent an email to about 50 people who I'd had conversations with over the previous year, some of which I'd never met in person, and said “you know, two days from now is March 30th. It's one year since I gave my testimony. I have a DVD copy of my testimony that I haven't watched. You're invited to my house, we're going to watch it together. I'm going to talk about it.” Almost every single person responded. Most couldn't come on two days’ notice – and thank goodness, because my living room didn't fit the bill – but there were six of us gathered that night, and we watched my video, and we talked about what our responsibility is. If the city is not doing something, the government's not doing something, there's not this major shift a year later… We are individuals that have influence, and can create change. So what does that mean, and what are we going to do?
A few weeks later, we organized a larger meeting, giving people some notice, and we had that same conversation in circle with about 35 people. And that was the start of RISE.
LATHAM
Oh wow. For me, it's really exciting to hear that as a new Canadian. It's exciting to hear that you, as a collective group, found your voice, and are finding your voice, and really seeing where your voice fits in the dialogue that’s out there. With the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, like you said before, it's 94 calls to action. How do you personally feel about that, and how does that fit into RISE's message that it's trying to get out there?
JIMMY
The challenge with the 94 calls to action, to quote Murray Sinclair, he said “we’ve shown you the mountain, we've shown you the pathway to the top, and we call on you to do the climbing.” So the 94 calls to action are the path, that's the route that you need to take. If Canada actually completed all 94 calls to action, our society would be different. The challenge with the 94 calls to action is that they are directed to orders of government, they are directed to the business community, they are directed to the not-for-profit sector, the business sector, the postsecondary sector. There is no call to action saying “I call on Annetta to do this, or I call on Miranda to do this.”
I've heard two sides of that, I've heard people say “well there's no call to action for me as an individual, therefore I have no role in reconciliation.” And then others who say “I want to do something, I don't know how to translate this into something for me.” That right there is the work of RISE. How do we translate this work of seven years of collecting testimony, and collecting documents, and telling a more wholesome truth of our history into a way of “what can I do?” That is the work of RISE.
LATHAM
So, in relation to truth and reconciliation, through your work with Indian Residential Schools Resolution Canada, you read hundreds of stories of residential school survivors. What was that experience like for you, as a generational survivor of residential schools?
JIMMY
Again, when my work started in that, I didn't know my family's connection to it. I didn't really understand. The more stories I heard the more commonalities I saw, and I realized that it didn't really matter what school you went to, what province you were in, even how old you were. The experience and the effect it had on your life was similar across all of those. Through that, I started to understand my dad more. I started to understand his experience, why he did certain things, how he was a parent to me, how he is today, and things started to make sense. For me that was a piece of my own puzzle, and my own understanding of who I am, and where I come from. Through that, you hear amazing stories of resilience, and overcoming hardship and challenges.
There are stories of laughter, and fun, and extreme challenges of abuse, and mental health, and addictions, and poor ways of dealing with the baggage that comes from that experience. All of that was an amazing learning opportunity for me to understand myself better, but also to understand my community better. I think that's the gift of the TRC to all Canadians, is to challenge those. Again, talking about that homeless person in downtown Edmonton. What experience brought them to that situation? Understanding that deals with the root causes, not just the situation of homelessness.
LATHAM
Fantastic. In the calls to action that we've talked about that were the outcome of the TRC, the use of language and culture are presented in a way that's really intertwined. Can you talk about the preservation and revitalization of Aboriginal languages and how that plays a role in culture?
JIMMY
I think really, the basis for the calls to action is the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which Canada was one of the last countries to adopt, and we still haven't actually seen the full impact of what that will be for our country. The residential school system was a system of assimilation, and a product of colonization, and through that whole process of assimilation many languages, traditions, and cultures were lost. There is an opportunity. I think there's more of a recognition now from younger generations of Indigenous people in our country to say, “this is important to capture and promote, before those languages are lost by people passing away.” Every day, every year, more and more elders from Indigenous communities across the country are lost. And with that, language, culture, traditions, knowledge is lost. So there's an urgency to this, and I think in the last decade or so, Indigenous communities amongst themselves have recognized the importance of this, and have invested time, and energy, and resources into revitalizing language and tradition. Because their loss is going to be felt for the next thousands of years.
So with the TRC, and with the UN Declaration, there's now more broad urgency to the cause. I think that there are opportunities now for governments and other funders to support that, so it's not left to the communities to do that themselves.
LATHAM
How do you see the role of an arts manager, within the TRC, in relation to the creation and presentation of traditional and contemporary Indigenous art forms?
JIMMY
Well something that's interesting is that you see, again, even within governments or within funders, you see that separation of, “art is this, culture is this, heritage is this.” I think from an Indigenous worldview, they all are coming from the same pot. That's going to be the challenge going forward, is how do government agencies and ministries work together across those silos? Because that's going to provide the best services and supports for individuals from the Indigenous community. I think that's going to be the challenge going forward, and again it's about Indigenizing the way we do things to provide the best service possible, and it's not about what fits within the box. It's about breaking down the box, and making sure that it's actually about that end result and the best service.
LATHAM
Yeah, fantastic. This was a specific section around museums and archives, with the call to undertake a review of the Canadian Museums Policy and best practices in order to determine a level of compliancy with the United Nations Declaration for Rights for Indigenous People that you mentioned earlier. From your perspective, what outcomes would you like to see happening in terms of the way Indigenous history is represented, including the big picture of Canadian history? And how do you feel how museums could take part in that?
JIMMY
Well, that's a really big question. I think to break it down, museums and archives, and even fine art institutions, are colonial institutions that are based on this idea that settlers are the experts. We know how to take care of your stuff, and we'll do the best job of taking care of your stuff, and our responsibility of stewarding that is more important than your involvement. That's really the basis of it. That needs to be challenged, that notion of what they are there to do needs to be challenged. We're seeing that here in Alberta, conversations around repatriation. We're just down the street, we're building a new museum, and compared to the previous museum that was built in ’67… the world has changed in that time, how we approach collection and interpretation has changed. It needs to continue to evolve, because I hope that the way we're doing things now will not be the same in a generation. I think that it’s recognizing that those spaces and standards need to be able to shift. I think that's really the key.
LATHAM
It's one of those interesting things as a New Zealander. I know that we have gone through the similar thing about repatriating our Indigenous communities and their artworks, and things that have sat inside other museums around the world. Definitely, first explorers took some things home with them, and that thing of bringing that back to its home is definitely an ongoing challenge around the world for First Nations communities, and how you navigate that. I think it's a real challenge.
JIMMY
I think it's not just about artifacts and artwork. It's about human remains. It's about how those things were obtained, and collected, and when does that story ever get to be told? I think that's the challenge.
LATHAM
Yeah, very much so. So, in relation to all of that, I think one of the challenges for us as arts managers, and for our young arts managers coming out of our program, is how do they work to move things forward in order to progress the reconciliation in their day-to-day practice and in their organizations when they start working? What would be good things for them to consider and start thinking about how they move reconciliation forward?
JIMMY
Well for me, I like to break down reconciliation into this simple form. Reconciliation is not about doing something, it's not about the checklist, it's not about completing the 94 calls to action, it's not about A B and C. Reconciliation is not about doing something, it's about doing it differently. So in approaching this work, it is a field dominated by settlers. So how can settlers do things differently? How can Indigenous voices be included in different ways? There has to be a recognition that there is a knowledge and management perspective that administrators can bring, but there is a knowledge and management perspective that Indigenous people can bring, and those things need to be married together. One’s not more important than the other. But there hasn't been that space, or inclusion, and that's what I think. Every day we have an opportunity in every conversation to challenge that norm, and to include voices that aren't at the table, and that will mean the shift.
LATHAM
I think that's a great way of putting it, because it means as you develop in your career, you not only include the Indigenous voices, but you start thinking about the other voices of the new settlers. And when you think about immigration of people who've come from horrendous countries where there still is war, when you start – like you say, including the voice – you start thinking about it across the board of who is in your community, and who's it made up of. And you start thinking in a way that allows you to be more, if anything, engaging or more creative. The response is really interesting, because it ends up actually becoming a more interesting organization, where the more voices you listen to, I think the more important it is. I certainly like the way you talk about when you start including a voice that's not there, not only do you empower that voice, but you also empower yourself as an organization to do and be a little different. It's a good place to be. I think as arts manager, that’s our call. We need to do and be a little different. Doing the status quo, I think, is old.
JIMMY
Well I think from the not-for-profit sector, the job of those organizations is to serve the communities they live in. And those communities are changing. They look different than they did a generation ago. But oftentimes, the people in leadership positions, that hasn't changed. So we're actually doing a disservice to the public funds we receive if we're not representing and reflecting the community in which we exist.
LATHAM
Yeah. So we would like to discuss the challenge that the non-Indigenous community faces in trying to connect and learn about the Indigenous culture. You know, there seems to be apprehension surrounding not wanting to do the wrong thing. Sometimes, even an access point into an Indigenous community can be challenging for both individuals and for arts organizations. And sometimes in that challenge there's been a lot of silence. So what do you think can happen to help change that situation?
JIMMY
I think the worst thing you can do is nothing. So even if you take a step forward, and it's a misstep, hopefully you learn from that and you learn knowledge, understanding from that experience and will do the next step differently. I think that is the most important lesson in all of this, to do something. To take a step forward, talk to someone new, go to an event you've never been to before, read a book you've never read before. All of those are steps forward, and I would like to think with each of us taking those steps every single day and challenging ourselves to do that, a generation from now our city or country will look differently.
What I'm worried about is that place of fear. That place of fear that says, “well I know nothing, I don't even know where to start.” Guess what, you do, I just gave you five examples of that. The challenge in all of this, though, is that we like things to be the same that they are. We like things to be the same routine. We like to go to the same movies, we like to go to the same restaurants, we like to talk to our same group of friends. All of this is out of our comfort zone, and requires us to personally change. That has to happen with intent, and so that is the personal responsibility of each of us in this reconciliation journey, is to be intentful about our actions.
LATHAM
Yeah, I think intent is a great phrase, because I don't think you can assume to understand a culture. And some of the challenges that people have is they want to understand, in exclamation marks, the culture before they engage. Like you said, the intent, take some steps forwards, do some things. And it’s speaking into the vacuum, into the silence, because if we all start speaking into the silence, it disappears. And that's where I really see the change, and the reconciliation happening. When you speak into the silence, as you've said it's a great thing. Go out to see something different, do something different, go to a festival you haven’t seen before and volunteer at it. Put some energy into it, and learn. Go with an open mind, and learn. What is the role of individuals who are not Indigenous, in communities in order to participate in changing that narrative and advocating for social change and inclusion? How does a non-Indigenous person navigate and support the voice of the Indigenous people in the communities?
JIMMY
Listen. There's two really simple things: make space for those voices to be heard. Don't ever take responsibility to speak on anyone's behalf. So it's making space at the table, including those voices, getting those perspectives. Not speaking on behalf of anyone. And then listening to what you hear. It’s a really simple thing, you need to listen twice as much as you talk. I think through all of that listening, you'll learn more about what you don't know, and a path will become clearer and the process you need to follow.
LATHAM
Fantastic. Are there specific suggestions that you can offer to our students, and arts managers, and organizations, that they can start doing now to build programming that is genuinely inclusive?
JIMMY
Yeah, it's those same steps. It's about thinking about who's not at the table, thinking about the community in which you operate and the makeup of that community, and making sure that your programming and exhibition is reflective of that community, not just reflective of the people that you know. And for me to think about the public institutions here in Edmonton, that would drastically change their programming and their their plans for the future, if they were actually reflective of our city. So the Indigenous roots and perspectives that are brought through those traditions, from the newcomers and the immigrants, from the gateway to the north that we are, all of those. I don't see that reflected in the art that's presented in our city regularly. So that would be the challenge, I would say that students and administrators now can bring forward.
LATHAM
Yeah, and I think it is a challenge, how you navigate that through your funding bodies, and your boards, and your audience, and how you know engage an audience with something a little bit uncomfortable, especially if you're an organization that is very much ticket-reliant and sells tickets. I think the challenge for all of us is to meet that challenge, and embrace it, and have a go, and start being more inclusive as you’ve said. I think it's really important.
As you've mentioned before, it's just taking the first step. And listen, listen and give people the space to respond to what you're giving them. Give them a different narrative, and see what happens. You might be incredibly surprised.
JIMMY
Right, and this change doesn't happen overnight. I wouldn't expect an institution to completely wipe their season and only present Indigenous voices. That's not what it's about. It's about the balance. And that change will happen over time by slowly including it. I think out of all sectors, the arts is most poised to do this. We should be on the cutting edge, and we should be expanding ideas and perspectives, and challenging people to think differently. What a great medium to do that in this particular cause.
LATHAM
Yeah, I think you're right. The arts is that kind of place where people go, “oh, that’s alright, they’re in the arts. They did it, they’re a little weird, they’re in the arts.” But you know it's coming along, so we almost need to embrace, and grab a hold of them, kind of be a little bit cheeky with them. Just, if anything push the envelope, because we are the in the arts. People who are uncomfortable with it can use that, “oh it’s just the arts.”
JIMMY
But I think the cause of reconciliation, if it doesn't make you uncomfortable, you're doing it wrong.
LATHAM
Yeah, you're right. I think that's a really good point. So what's next for Miranda Jimmy? Should we anticipate seeing you in the political arena again?
JIMMY
Well I can say I've never been accused of being quiet. I will continue to use my voice and create the change that I want to see. I think through my experience running as a candidate, I'm even more empowered to do that. I see more spaces available to me and open to me for my voice to be included. So I'm taking advantage of that elevated awareness of who I am to use that space to call attention to some of these really important issues of our time.
LATHAM
Yeah, that's absolutely wonderful. I look forward to seeing what you do and hearing and watching what you're involved with, and working with you as we move forward with things. Is there anything that we haven't asked that you think is a really important thing that we mention to our listeners?
JIMMY
When when people think about this cause, of reconciliation, and again that place of fear, and “I don't know where to start,” the metaphor I like to present is this: So, going back to Murray Sinclair saying “we've laid before you a mountain,” all of this information, all this testimony, you know, 5.5 million documents. It's a lot like we have to climb it together as Canadians. I think about it this way, again, we have an opportunity every single day, every conversation we have, every tweet we send out, to say something important. And each of those is a drop in the bucket. If each of those are doing one of those things, and our one of those things a day, all these drops are being dropped in the bucket. Each of those create a ripple, and ripples connecting with other ripples are creating waves, and over time waves actually change the landscape. And that's what we're talking about, this long-term goal. But it starts with those little drops.
LATHAM
Yeah, fantastic. I want to thank you for your time today. It's been fascinating listening to you. As a new Canadian, a lot of this is very new information to me. So thank you for the enlightenment that I've received today. As I said before, I look forward to working with you in the future.
JIMMY
Thank you for having me.
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INGRAM
It's Katrina and Annetta in the studio. Annetta, that was a great interview with Maranda Jimmy.
LATHAM
Yeah, amazing woman.
INGRAM
Yeah, I especially liked how she talked about the idea of the project that she worked on from a perspective of inclusion. It was really woven through the fabric of that project. I just felt like it was really integrated right into the work itself, and I really liked how she described the criteria that she used. It was just so qualitative in nature, and that was really in-depth.
LATHAM
Yeah, very much so. While that project really resonated with me, one of the other things that did also was when she talked about culture, art, and heritage all being one thing. How from a colonialist perspective, we tend to see them as separate, and her real passion for us to stop doing that. And for Canada really to embrace them, as they are all part of the same voice, and that's how the Indigenous community see them. I thought that was really powerful, and really interesting, and very similar to how the Indigenous community in Australia view it as well. I actually thought that was really amazing and very very powerful.
INGRAM
I really liked the language that she used to describe that, because that really resonated with me as well. It reminded me of another story that I heard recently, it was a historian, Neil Ferguson. He was talking about the difference between seeing history through an archive versus seeing history through personal papers, and I really kind of got that same vibe from what Miranda was saying about… It's not just the artifacts and the artwork, it's human remains, it’s how these things were obtained and collected. That all weaves into the story.
LATHAM
Yeah, very much so. And also it weaves into the story of the Indigenous voice, and them continuously having to present their voice and have a voice as an Indigenous community in Canada. I think that is a really interesting challenge that they have as an Indigenous community, and where they go with that and what they do with it. I liked the way she kind of talked about the rest of us needing to come to the table as well. So I thought it was a great interview. I thought she was fantastic, and I really enjoyed talking to her about what she was doing, and I really look forward to seeing where she's going to go in the future with all of this.
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This show was created by:
Executive Producer - Annetta Latham
Producer - Katrina Ingram
Technical Producer - Paul Johnston
Research Assistant - Rael Lockwood
Theme Music - Emily Darfur
Cover Art - Constanza Pacher
Latham, A. (Executive Producer). Latham, A (Host). (2018, May 7). Artful Conversations [Season 1: Episode 6]. Miranda Jimmy. Podcast retrieved from https://www.artfulconversations.com/transcriptions/2019/1/4/ep-6-miranda-jimmy
Artful Conversations is a production of Annetta Latham in partnership with MacEwan University. All rights reserved.